I mentioned a dancer - in England - who had first shown me how powerful a quiet dance with the characteristics I described could be. As with the man in Buenos Aires, I asked him how he came to dance the way he does. He replied in a similar way - that it was the result of a lot of social dancing, years of experience in the milonga. Neither guy mentioned classes.
Both men share similarities beyond giving memorable dances so I wonder if these are characteristics of such dancers. Both dress casually, are quiet, discreet, are in every way wholly unobtrusive. Both say little, look much, start to dance unusually soon. I was surprised at this in the Argentine because most people in Buenos Aires chat well into the track before starting to dance. He I only ever saw dancing in the inner ronda which may be in part why it took me over three weeks to spot him. Both men dance musically and above all for the woman and to the conditions of the woman and the couple.
The interesting thing about both these dancers is that neither of their dances are characterised by moves. I simply don't see how teaching in class can create that kind of dancing and I have never seen or heard of anyone trying to teach the kind of things that characterise it. To try and do that in class would be absurd and grotesque because what is created between the couple is a feeling, a sense. It is to do with the music and the couple. I do not see how it is something that can be taught in a class. It is something I think you learn yourself with and through other people and it does not require speech. My description is perhaps not very helpful but what it does suggest is that what some (not all) think of as good dancing is not about "dance levels”. It is perhaps about finding compatibility of various things, including character within the dance. In this sort of dance - I speak from the girl’s side of things - there is trust, harmony, discovery. The words I am reaching for are nebulous, words like understanding, recognition.
But this is one perspective. This sort of dance is not or at least does not seem to be what everyone wants.
"This sort of dance is not or at least does not seem to be what everyone wants."
ReplyDeleteYes, shame isn't it! But it's not surprising given the teaching.
Even in Buenos Aires too. How can you know that's what you might prefer if you don't dance the way that enables the dance of the senses and thus have never experienced it.
However the way of dancing to enable such an experience can be acquired by teaching the body, by practice and by dancing.
So who can actually teach it so you can learn it?
Only yourself.
It is you that dances, not teacher unless teacher actually is you. Outside Buenos Aires, it's a difficult road.
"How can you know that's what you might prefer if you don't dance the way that enables the dance of the senses and thus have never experienced it."
ReplyDeleteI think new women dancers learn it by dancing with men who can dance. "A 'real' dance" a friend called it. Also by choosing and being chosen without any form of pressure which often masquerades in various forms of subtle and not so subtle coercion and "encouragement" to change partners by some teachers, milonga organisers and even DJs when they play tango tandas in threes or even twos.
How do men know? By starting to dance in the woman's role first I think. Else for them it is is indeed usually a long, hard Road.
Yes, women can learn the dance of the senses from a man who can dance.
ReplyDeleteBut just how many of those are there really who have both the time and the inclination to dance with beginners rather than with other actual dancing women? I have done it but there was a quid pro quo - I was developing my dance too and I chose women (a number of them actually) who already had a dancing ability and one who had the physicality but not the dancing experience of other dances. I was lucky, I too danced other dances (still do) so I could find potentially interested partners and practise at their homes and mine.
I have no reason to continue doing it although I do continue dancing with most of these original practise partners. It isn't realistic to expect that as a norm. And from all the comments I receive from foreigners and portenas alike, there are precious few Englishmen (nor Europeans) who have anything remotely resembling an argentine abrazo.
As for men learning the women's role, let's be realistic - it's unlikely to happen generally. This man for one was never interested nor did I feel the need. That's just delaying the real learning. People go all rosy-eyed at the notion that men learned the woman's part in BsAs before they learned their own role. Well some did, but it wasn't universal, in fact it's more clear that there was no universal way of learning. Those boys (young teenagers probably, not really men) who learned the woman's role were used as practise fodder by older boys (OK, very young men) teaching themselves the man's role in preparation for the milongas. The younger boys were available, the older ones could pick and choose those with the interest and the potential to mimic the attributes of the women they were hoping to dance with - slim, the right height and light weight. Grown men don't have the attributes of boys and I think you'll find the problem of the man with man idea cuts both ways, men neither want to lead a heavy beginner grown man nor do beginner men want to start learning a dance by learning/dancing with a man when in fact the whole point is that they want to dance with a woman.
“Yes, women can learn the dance of the senses from a man who can dance. But just how many of those are there really who have both the time and the inclination to dance with beginners rather than with other actual dancing women?”
ReplyDelete:) Great point. I think partly this depends on where. It also depends what kind of beginner because there are new beginners, long-term beginners and “sub-beginners” (an evocative term and not one I can claim as mine).
To follow the first point - if I dance away I am less inclined to dance with new dancers compared to at home. I have often travelled many hours and I want the best dancing I can find. Also, if you dance with a beginner in a scene where you are not known, it is often said you may find that you are then pigeon-holed although this I find to be far less the case than I am often told. A lot depends on your own beliefs and attitude.
At home, within say an hour of Perth, I am actively seeking new guys to dance with - and girls for that matter, but especially guys. I am looking for complete beginners more interested in dancing one on one with people who can dance and with whom they enjoy dancing than they are in going to classes and holding another beginner at arms length while trying to think out what to do. I want this because I find beginner men can quickly become lovely to dance with this way. I find they become much better than class dancers and much more quickly becuase they avoid all the pitfalls to which that sort of dancing entraps them.
“I have done it but there was a quid pro quo - I was developing my dance too and I chose women (a number of them actually) who already had a dancing ability and one who had the physicality but not the dancing experience of other dances.”
I have found many beginner women nice to dance with and shortly lovely if they don’t then get too entangled in class.
“I have no reason to continue doing it “
Then I take it you are happy with a static and undeveloping scene?
“It isn't realistic to expect that as a norm.”
I think it is if you want a healthy, thriving scene. The alternative is to dance with class girls and all the long-term awkwardness and lack of confidence that causes.
“And from all the comments I receive from foreigners and portenas alike, there are precious few Englishmen (nor Europeans) who have anything remotely resembling an argentine abrazo.”
I’m not sure what your point is in the context but yes I found this to be true. But there are many lovely European embraces. Not all Argentine guy abrazos are good, but I did find them for the most part to be very different from Europe. Sometimes lovely, sometimes not, but generally characterised by a different sense of the woman and the music to in Europe and a greater commitment to the shared embrace.
“As for men learning the women's role, let's be realistic - it's unlikely to happen generally.”
ReplyDeleteIt used to. The only reason it doesn’t now is becuase learning has become industrialised rather than social.
“This man for one was never interested nor did I feel the need.”
All my favourite guy dancers I usually find can, do or have danced at some point as the woman. The revelations most say are invaluable.
“That's just delaying the real learning. “
So what is the real learning?
“People go all rosy-eyed at the notion that men learned the woman's part in BsAs before they learned their own role. Well some did, but it wasn't universal, in fact it's more clear that there was no universal way of learning. Those boys (young teenagers probably, not really men) who learned the woman's role were used as practise fodder by older boys (OK, very young men) teaching themselves the man's role in preparation for the milongas. “
Really? Where do you know this from?
The practimilonguero videos on Youtube are a great source for what actually happened because it is the older guys around at the time or who were children who knew the men dancing in the 30s and 40s and who tell you how it was. The last one I heard said we (boys from the neighbourhood) met at I think they said the neighbourhood cafe and practised together. The distinct idea was that they were coeval.
“Grown men don't have the attributes of boys “
True. And easily the best beginnner guy I danced with this year who was 29 was, though my height of 6’, slim and boyish in build. I do often find beginner guys heavy and awkward, much more so than girls. But I have also found height and build has no necessary correlation with dance ability. There is nothing I find more challenging (and therefore interesting) than dancing with a beginner guy - without doing yourself an injury. It is an area of huge interest to me - how to move well with them because it is not necessarily at all easy. A man who can dance well with a beginner man is someone with whom I have great interest in dancing because invariably he is a great dancer. Beginner men in swapped roles can be even more self conscious than beginner girls so I am not just curious how to move with them, but how to facilitate the falling away of that awkwardness. Venue/environment and amount of time to dance together and establish trust has a lot to do with that I find. In life men are more used to control than trust I find so this is fascinating.
“and I think you'll find the problem of the man with man idea cuts both ways, men neither want to lead a heavy beginner grown man nor do beginner men want to start learning a dance by learning/dancing with a man when in fact the whole point is that they want to dance with a woman. “
This is an excellent point. But such men unwilling to dance as women are likely to find it is going to take them an extremely long time (if ever) to get to dance, still less dance regularly, with the women they most desire and are also likely to ascribe their not dancing with such women to (typically) snobbishness in the woman herself.