Further to this, a few Europeans advertise as professional DJs. Some try to evade that point about “compromising what they believe” with the equivocating retort that they play what they think the market wants. It was pointed out to me that such European professionals do know their market: “And that market is organisers not dancers.”
Still, going by what they would like you to understand: they will play what (they believe) the (dancing) market wants. Bearing in mind that many of these DJs believe in “educating” dancers it still sounds to me like an evasion of the question “What will you compromise on when it comes to getting paid”? These DJs are always in my experience also dancers, unlike the professional DJs with regular milonga routines in Buenos Aires, some of the most respected of whom do not dance yet who truly know their market. In Europe it strikes me that the market, unlike the many men I met and asked in Buenos Aires, generally don’t know the orchestras, the tracks the words, what music is for dancing or sometimes, even really what they like. That said such not-for-dancing tracks are nearly always less popular than traditional, mainstream music and the only one who doesn't seem to notice that is the DJ, the very person who ought. So, the status of professional DJs here is not it strikes me, at all the same as in Buenos Aires. Also, they do not seem to play the same music as the music I heard the professionals play there.
In many ways it is deeply depressing that so many in the tango world view it (us) in terms of a 'market' at all. But commercial considerations are never far away: it does cost money to hire a venue, make it look attractive, provide refreshments, a DJ and a sound system. Organisers and DJs need to meet the expectations/requirements of viable numbers of dancers or their events will be few in number and unsustainable. Some may have lofty views about what a milonga could/should be, but their own particular set of preferences could easily be at variance with the majority, and they would repel, rather than attract all but a few like-minded dancers.
ReplyDeleteThe obvious danger is that events are dumbed down to some sort of lowest common denominator (let's call it tango lite). So many people drift into tango from other styles, or just dance tango occasionally, that the tango lite events are the ones most likely to attract viable attendance. A situation can quickly arise in an area that 'proper' traditional miongas are seen (by the majority) as elitist and cliquey. Little by little, they get squeezed out, and tango lite becomes the norm.
Tandas of threes (if there are tandas at all), mixed music styles (that scratchy stuff all sounds the same, doesn't it?) and a handsome cake display are too often the hallmarks of successful events. In my region there is almost nothing else on offer. Week after week there are no traditional milongas to attend, and the closer you are to one of the big cities, the less likely you are to find traditional tango. My home city, for example, currently offers NO regular traditional tango events. None.
Felicity wrote "... people it seems, will travel for it - even to places like rural Dorset where, tmk, there are not many milongas. Why then not to Birmingham?"
DeleteThe same reason as with any UK city. The best dancing is furthest from the source of the worst. That source being dance classes of the kind that commercial factors encourage in cities.
There are few different points here. Re the first one:
ReplyDeleteClive wrote "In many ways it is deeply depressing that so many in the tango world view it (us) in terms of a 'market' at all."
I don't think I see things that way. I don't have a problem with people making money from DJing or running a milonga. If I thought classes were a great way for people to learn to dance Argentine tango I wouldn't have a problem with that either.
People run milongas for different reasons: many I think because they want a local dance community or more of one, or they want something different to what is already on offer which are all good reasons. Secondly, some run them because they want to fundraise for charity. Lastly, some run them because they want to make money. I think this type tends to gravitate towards teaching dance class, being (at present) more profitable. Laudable though the first two reasons are, it is the more end result, the milonga itself, that interests me.
I have always been more inclined to the view: provide a good product or service that is popular with the market and success will follow rather than the alternative: "pile em high, sell em cheap and screw the punter any which way you can".
My objection isn't that the organiser makes money, but that the 'profit motive' is likely to result in events of lower quality, if it is a major factor in the organiser's motivation.
DeleteBusinesses compete: a first principle of marketing a business idea is to have a 'Unique Selling Proposition', but so few businesses actually ARE innovative or offer anything truly distinctive, that we quickly get into a smoke and mirrors world, where, for example, a big brand doesn't actually have to be any good - it just needs to be not obviously worse than the competitor. It's a rush to the bottom, using sleight of hand to disguise the corners cut, and basically a deliberate deception with a view to profit maximization.
Customers are mostly pretty dumb, and a cynic would say that they get what they deserve. I look at the tango scene (particularly in my own region, inevitably, and realise that we've been had.The irony is that there are so few well-attended events, that actually, no one is making any money either.
It's the inverse of a win-win situation.
It doesn't sound like you have a market for the kind of milonga you want. On the other hand though, I don't go out much locally because I don't find the kind of milonga I enjoy. Or they are not on days I can go. Perhaps you need to do some canvassing of opinion at the milongas nearest you. Unless you actually ask people it is very hard to know accurately why people are not coming out.
ReplyDeleteRichard Slade's milonga, Menuda is an interesting example of a remote but successful milonga. The nearest big town is I think Bournemouth about half an hour away. I don't know the story of how that milonga started, or how it was when it started, but I have been. It is a lovely hall, in a nice setting...miles from anywhere, in Cranborne in rural Dorset heading towards south west England. Yet I saw people there from London, 2+ hours, over 100 miles away to go there. It is a long milonga and that no doubt helps. Tango Journey, which I've also been similarly is in a rural village hall and attracts people from I believe quite a distance. I met people from Bristol and Bath the day I went. It helps that it's not far from the motorway.
It's a very curious thing why people travel different distances. Some people from Aberdeen travel a lot for dance. A few people from Glasgow go to Edinburgh (a mere hour away) and have done for a while. Now I notice some people are starting to come from Edinburgh to Glasgow, which was rare in previous years. So, people will travel, even in some cases when there are alternatives on offer nearer them...
The obvious response is that I am as capable as anyone else of travelling. Within two hours of home, I have a wide range of milongas where the music is played in well-put-together tandas by decent DJs, where the hosting and venues are both good and where like-minded dancers have made the effort to attend. People ask me, as we chat between songs, where I've come from. Birmingham, I reply. They give frequently me that look of incredulity mixed with pity. I guess word gets around.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I didn't mean you to understand I think you should travel. It is much nicer of course if new people come to a milonga that exists locally! I meant simply that if a milonga is good enough or established enough, word does get around and people it seems, will travel for it - even to places like rural Dorset where, tmk, there are not many milongas. Why then not to Birmingham?
ReplyDeleteI am at a loss to think that anything will ever change in Birmingham. Over many years, several amateur teachers have churned their way through hundreds of beginners’ classes, but there’s almost nothing to show for it. Where are all the experienced and skilled dancers? Where are the milongas? The place is deeply, deeply screwed up.
ReplyDeleteClive wrote: "Over many years, several amateur teachers have churned their way through hundreds of beginners’ classes, but there’s almost nothing to show for it."
ReplyDeleteCheck their tango shoe collections :-)
"Where are all the experienced and skilled dancers? Where are the milongas? The place is deeply, deeply screwed up."
Let's keep in mind it's not the place. The same screw-up is throughout the UK. Just see London, Edinburgh, Cambridge, Bristol or anywhere else that's suffered a decade of class teaching.
Fact is, experienced and skilled dancers don't get that way through classes. They get that way though dancing. Today just as in the Golden Age.
As the UK number of places to dance tango grows, so will the number (and proportion) of better dancers.
I do agree with Clive that there is little to show for all that teaching effort. I went to a milonga in Glasgow at the weekend and there were next to no new dancers yet there is a slew of new generation teachers in that city plus a handful of the old guard. I rarely see new dancers in milongas in Glasgow. There were a few open hold visitors attracted by the visiting teacher/performer Damian Thompson. Very few new dancers come to the milongas as a proportion of those starting in class.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the question though is why do London, Edinburgh, Cambridge and Bristol have classes and milongas, whereas per Clive in Birmingham "Over many years, several amateur teachers have churned their way through hundreds of beginners’ classes" but there are apparently no milongas.
Felicity wrote: "why do London, Edinburgh, Cambridge and Bristol have classes and milongas, whereas per Clive in Birmingham ... there are apparently no milongas."
DeleteBirmingham had more previously and it's current zero does not differ significantly from e.g. Bristol.
Regardless, all share the fact they have very few milongas to show for years of classes.
Also enlightening is the fact the class suppliers don't view this as a failure. E.g. Bristol's oldest club proudly declares its 'thousands of classes over the years' as if it were a good thing. You'd sort of hope this would have generated a thriving social dance scene. In actuality it has given the city currently less than one milonga a week.
Agreed re Bristol milongas Bristol Calendar. It's such a shame because Tango West's milonga was probably my favourite of 2015. At that time I liked the hosting, music, dancing and great conditions (venue/seating/lighting etc).
DeleteThe reason I haven't gone back this year is because I simply couldn't find enough on locally there to make a weekend of it. I had thought of combining it with a Magic Roundabout milonga (although they seem to avoid the same weekends). I know and like Paul but this sort of music is not my thing.
It's a shame when organisers seem to avoid whole weekends when one of them might have something on even on just one of the days. It's as though feel they need to eke out the dancers between them. If organisers were more confident about the draw of their milonga that wouldn't be the case. I don't believe that Brits are such very different humans to say Argentinians or people living in cities that the idea of dancing on two different days appalls them.
Happily, the idea of the no-classes milonga weekend, attracting people from beyond the immediate local area is spreading. Not sure if you can just tun up without booking - ideally, yes.
TangoWest's Bailamos weekends were the best multi-milonga events that I've enjoyed in the UK. Helped by the fact they told the dancers what kind of music to expect (Golden Age) and told the guest DJs to stick to that. I was sad that Bailamos ceased a couple of years ago and I hope it returns.
DeleteI'll take the question to be a rhetorical one: and not attempt an answer!
ReplyDeleteOh! Why? Is it so obvious?
ReplyDelete