A: Please don't let your "It's not me" discourage you from using others' tandas. You should not expect to make good tandas on day #1.
B: I think we misunderstand each other. I'm not. But I have to make the tandas partly myself. I simply won't learn if I just copy tandas or even sets from someone else.
A: You won't learn the composition side, but you will learn the performance side. And the performance side needs learning first, I think, esp. if you have no experience with PA.
B: There is a difference between studying someone else’s tandas and setlists and making choices and judgements of your own based on that (which may result in playing the same tanda), and just playing someone else's precomposed setlist. Use of someone else’s sets or tandas has to be the former, active use.
A: Can't see why. Next you'll be wanting to play the notes! :)
B: It isn’t active. Like dancing. It isn't "just" following, is it?
A: Beware of me-jaying. The good DJ is not a leader. He is simply a provider. If what he provides is good, no-one cares how active he is. Unless (if he's a me-jay) him/herself.
B: Me-jaying? I've never heard of that!
A: Extreme example (aided by technology) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8_PjawCcy8
B: I dunno, maybe he just likes vinyl. People do, I believe.
A: Sure he does. All the better for Show DJing :)
B: Plenty of people there don't seem to mind.
A: Plenty of people aren't there. :)
I'm surprised you don't mention Damián Boggio: http://tangodj-vinilo.blogspot.co.uk/p/damian-boggio-tango-dj-english.html
ReplyDeleteHe visited Birmingham several times, and often played vinyl. It's just a medium and I can't get excited about it. The only reason I might prefer vinyl to CD or other digital carrier (on the assumption that 78s are really not practical) is that so many transfers for digital release have been so mucked about with or are otherwise of such poor quality (wrong pitch, added reverberation and other miscellaneous horrors) that an LP from the late 50s & shortly after may be the closest we can get to the original sound. But I'd want them carefully digitised.
Fashions change, and surely everyone has grown bored of the vinyl fetish. Now, the trendies fret about whether their digital music files are lossless - the have to be lossless. Never mind that most of these DJs have spent so much time clubbing that they have destroyed their hearing and can't even hear how loud their music is. It has to be lossless.
As usual, the Emperor has no clothes.
But on the question of using/learning from other people's setlists or tandas, I wonder how many people actually use anything produced by someone else. I know of one Midlands occasional DJ who has ripped entire tandas (inc. cortina) from TOTW - you can see them on his laptop with all four songs + cortina in one file. Usually, they are awful, awful transfers from Spotify and without even the most rudimentary replay volume management. But his audience seem happy enough...
I don't think that I have ever, knowingly, used someone else's tanda (although some song combinations are so obviously the right ones that they are inescapable). Of course, people assessing the repertoire completely independently can come to make the same choices. More often, I wonder what on earth the DJ was thinking: how could anyone think that this goes with that. We all develop our own approach and personal taste counts for a lot. The DJs whose selections I enjoy hearing are ones I trust - I know that I can relax in the knowledge that there will be good music for dancing. I don't fret if the odd song seems out of place, or if a whole tanda or orchestra leaves me cold. It's probably someone else's favourite, and they paid to get in too.
I'm surprised you don't mention Damián Boggio: http://tangodj-vinilo.blogspot.co.uk/p/damian-boggio-tango-dj-english.html
DeleteThanks. Don't know of him. Knowing who plays vinyl I find potentially a useful indication of other things.
I know of one Midlands occasional DJ who has ripped entire tandas (inc. cortina) from TOTW - you can see them on his laptop with all four songs + cortina in one file. Usually, they are awful, awful transfers from Spotify and without even the most rudimentary replay volume management.
I would understand if someone copied tandas when they were new. That's learning. That isn't what I did though I had the choice. I was almost perverse in not wanting to do that and made life much harder for myself than I need have. But to choose poor tracks with poor sound and not to manage the sound - combined with copying wholesale - is a bit of a worry. To persist in all of those things probably means the DJ hasn't the aptitude or has never found a good and experienced practitioner to learn from (as in dance).
The DJs whose selections I enjoy hearing are ones I trust - I know that I can relax in the knowledge that there will be good music for dancing.
DeleteAgreed.
I don't fret if the odd song seems out of place
Depends how out of place. I don't care about the dates but if a D'Arienzo tanda is from obviously different eras (where the feel is wrong) - that's a problem. A tanda with 4 good tracks, of similar feel, then I don't mind if one is maybe slightly mismatched or if the order I think is a bit mistaken.
or if a whole tanda or orchestra leaves me cold.
Disagreed. I mind that hugely. How can you dance if it leaves you cold? It's jarring, ruins the tanda for dance and if I'm left cold and I possibly can - depending - I sit down, apologetically to my partner and dismayed by the DJ. It's an awful experience. 3 or 4 good tracks - is it so much to ask?
That's why I mind so much this "exploring the repertoire". That's what the DJ does at home. My general plea is not to "educate the dancers" in the milonga. Plenty of people know what they like. Any dancers who want further instruction and education can do that themselves - in their homes or in a cafe meetup about exploring unknown tango music. They do similar things for board games, all sorts of niche interests.
Perhaps you misunderstand me. I don't ever expect or plan to dance every tanda, so the odd miss among many hits doesn't bother me. I don't ever line up a partner until I've heard the opening bars of the first song, either: so no face is lost if I don't want to dance.
ReplyDeleteActually, 3 or 4 good tracks IS a lot to ask - at least based on the prevailing standard of DJing I hear. It's mostly pretty bad, so it's a lovely surprise to hear someone who's actually good at selecting music with taste and discernment, and skilled in presenting it properly. I do wish DJs were valued for being able to do that. Alas, other things seems to be more important too often, when I don;t think that they matter much or at all.
I don't ever expect or plan to dance every tanda, so the odd miss among many hits doesn't bother me.
DeleteThat isn't the point though. A miss tanda (signalled by first track, or one that had a good intro track but which for some reason I didn't happen to dance) has to be better than a screwed up tanda I've started to dance. The problem is with a track that leaves you cold mid-tanda. That's why risky tricks are better first or - better - last.
Actually, 3 or 4 good tracks IS a lot to ask
I don't think so because it isn't hard. I think people make it hard, by trying too hard or over-working things, forgetting or just not seeing (if the DJ isn't a dancer) simply, what most people like to dance. It's like learning to dance. People make it so hard for themselves in class, when there are much easier ways yielding better results, faster, cheaper and so much more pleasurably.
Well, I'm thinking of trusted DJ's occasional misses, not the prevailing standard. Sometimes, I can put not wanting to dance down to my own taste, mood or whether I'm feeling fresh or tired - but it's often just the wrong music for the moment.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to agree that putting together 3-4 songs that are good for dancing shouldn't be hard - but then I regularly hear selections that leave me cold. I operate a sort-of three strikes and your out rule, whereby if I have heard three consecutive tandas that I don't want to dance, I'll probably leave. After 30+ minutes, I'm probably no longer in the mood to dance whatever the DJ might come up with next. And there comes a point when feelings of apprehension win over feelings of anticipation, and it's time to go home.
But the task is more than to select a small group of songs that form a coherent group (although that is the foundation of it), but to sequence those groups appropriately, and to offer a suitable balance of orchestras, styles and periods. You can alternatively express that as a range of moods or feel, energy, or whatever language you want to employ. It is a lot to ask, and to do it all with good soundcraft, too. Sadly, I don't think that the prevailing standard is very high.
Well, I'm thinking of trusted DJ's occasional misses, not the prevailing standard.
DeleteOf course there are different tastes but for me it's about...elasticity. Up to a point you can and would probably want to accommodate a difference in taste - or variety and interest and hearing potentially new tracks. I found this best in BA, esp Di Sarli and D'Arienzo tracks. I suppose this elasticity is the tolerance overlap which in actual dance terms (for me) on the floor means - "Can this music still move me or can I fake it such that she won't know?" And I hate having to make that choice. Or, it's "I just can't and don't want to do anything with this track, it will be miserable and she might be able to tell". At that point, things snap. This is what dancing from the music means for me. If that happens two or three times a night, well...
But, there is a workaround! If you knows what the DJ plays quite well and know that tastes diverge radically over certain orchestras, when you hear the opening notes of the first track of that orchestra you can choose not to take the risk.
there comes a point when feelings of apprehension win over feelings of anticipation
:) So true! Though, these things tend to get signalled, one way or another early on and it isn't necessarily even by the music - so there is usually advance warning!
But the task is more than to select a small group of songs that form a coherent group [etc]
How is that hard?
1) Play three or four tracks you know people like to dance
2) Balance the feel between tandas, which is nearly the same thing as saying: play a range of orchestras (i.e. be very careful about who you play twice.)
3) Soundcraft
The problem I think is partly, but I suspect less, of not knowing what to do. It is one of attitude, of difference of opinion though it could be I find this by avoiding certain types of DJ.
Sure, some e.g. don't think to play a range of orchestras. More often I find there are DJs who want to educate dancers by playing unknown tracks; DJs who play vals in four or fives, or emphasise rhythmic over more softer, smoother types of music because it is their personal preference; DJ who believe you must repeat certain orchestras before giving space (once) to others; DJs who think if the tracks are good the soundcraft doesn't matter that much.
How is that hard?
DeleteWell, why is it too often done so badly? If it's easy, bottle it and sell it: there must be a market, surely?
I was writing, only yesterday, about the mix of orchestras that I play, and given your two references here to repeat tandas from certain orchestras when others haven't been heard once, wondered where you would draw the line. How many orchestras (and which, if you like) are in your 'must have, as long as there's time' list, before you start to repeat others?
My list has fifteen orchestras that I'd miss if I hadn't heard them even once in three TTVTTM cycles of tandas (just over three hours, usually), and then another group of orchestras that I play occasionally. But even with 15 'key' orchestras, I will have played Di Sarli and D'Arienzo twice (usually) and Troilo and Canaro twice (sometimes) They were just too good at tango, vals and/or milonga not to. If I have the opportunity to add one more tanda beyond that, I won't always add a new orchestra. Balanced in the scales, the greats count for more - that's what makes them great. Do I prefer a 2nd Troilo tanda to one by Sassone? Yes, nearly every time. And I could say the same for many minor orchestras. My fundamental principles (and only others can say to what degree I succeed in my aims) are to offer a good variety of great dance music in coherent tandas and with good soundcraft. It's hard to believe that anyone would aim for anything different - but the results can sometimes seem unfortunate ...
Felicity wrote: "How is that hard?
Delete1) Play three or four tracks you know people like to dance
2) Balance the feel between tandas, which is nearly the same thing as saying: play a range of orchestras (i.e. be very careful about who you play twice.)
3) Soundcraft"
It's not hard.
Clive wrote: "Well, why is it too often done so badly?"
Because too often people aren't just doing Felicity's 1,2,3, one at a time. They are neglecting 1,2,3 and attempting unnecessary 4,5,6,7,8,9 all at the same time.
Often that's because they've been listening to people who say 4-9 are necessary. People who say that DJing is really hard. People delivering DJing so poor as to confirm DJing is really hard (for them). People saying DJing is really hard as an excuse for their poor DJing. People trying to make it hard for every else, so their own DJing doesn't look as poor as it is.
For anyone with even just a basic understanding of the music, dancers and equipment, and as Felicity says the right attitude, DJing is not hard.
I think that anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the key repertoire and reasonable judgment can make a thoroughly workman-like job of DJing. Some have a real gift for choosing just the right songs for the moment (and still keep everything in balance), but they are in the minority. I really wish that the prevailing standard was higher than it is. I might dance more too.
DeleteThe hardest bit is 1.
DeleteA decent tanda is more than three or four tracks you know people like to dance. They need to be thematically or stylistically related, and as Felicity remarked, yesterday, in relation to D'Arienzo, it's easy to end up with songs that don't belong. You can distil clear principles for tanda building: it is the kernel of the DJs art.
Clive wrote: "They need to be thematically or stylistically related"
DeleteIsn't that Point 6 from the 'DJing is Hard' school? :-)
It is completely bogus.
"Thematically related" is extra bogus. Making tandas about money, colours, farmyard animals, or even (I kid you not, from a Cambridge dance instructor) successive letters of the alphabet is sure way to make cr*p tandas.
The tracks of a tanda need only to meet one simple requirement. A couple getting up to any one of them will be happy to stay up for the rest (non-music issues aside, of course). Understanding this (and the music) is the key to composing good tandas. It's not hard.
Well, if you're setting the bar so low to judge success or failure by the majority not actually sitting down in response to the music being played, then Yes, DJing is easy.
DeleteClive wrote: "if you're setting the bar so low to judge success or failure by the majority not actually sitting down in response to the music being played"
DeleteI'm not. Read again: "... will be happy to stay up ...".
Dancer happiness is the essential ingredient missing from all these DJ formulae based instead on thematic, stylistic relations etc. This is possibly the most valuable lesson any would-be DJ can learn from the DJing of BA milongas as opposed to that of the (we agree) often dire standard here in the UK.
I grew up in a military environment so it was perhaps natural that my father often reminded us of the KISS principle though I never understood why it wasn't pronounced kiz, since he only ever mentioned the first three words.
ReplyDeleteMusic is about feeling I think and feelings are usually clear enough even if sometimes hard to name.
Clive wrote "You can distil clear principles for tanda building: it is the kernel of the DJs art."
That is not simple, not for me, anyway. It is trying to mix a scientific method and art. It is also about building tandas rather than sensing them, sensing music and the connections between tracks. You could call that art though I feel that makes it into something inaccessible as on a high shelf and I would rather it was more accessible, within more people's reach. Within the reach of anyone interested really.
I once heard it said about milonga DJing that process influences product where 'process' is the way we make tandas and the way we DJ. I believe that is true. And I believe that influence extends beyond the tracks and sound that are produced to the way dancers are on the floor too. That's a big responsibility and even in non me-jays who don't want to puff things up and pretend they are other than they are, I can understand the temptation to make it seem like, to oneself a hard task, or to turn it into one. But it isn't something that is to do with in-depth technology, conceptual structures and principles. At least I don't think it has to be.
Well look at your different eras proviso for decent D'Arienzo tandas. You can choose to use vague and general language about feelings and rely on them to guide you to acceptable results. Equally, you could also use less vague language (particularly if you're describing the process to someone else) and explain that he changed styles several times, partly driven by general trends, but more usually by changing pianists and singers, and you can show your friend a printed chronological discography, neatly ruled off into your chosen eras, with the suggestion that an efficient starting point is to choose songs from within each era - and to use the time saved on an orchestra that isn't so easy to pin down (ie where those feelings may be better deployed).
ReplyDeleteEither way, you are applying a principle, and whether you choose to give it that or any other name makes little difference to the results. Some people will apply or rely on their feelings or emotions to guide them in all manner of decisions - it's a facet of their personality - while others will bring a more methodical approach to the same task. Neither is a better method, except for the individual concerned.
I don't think DJing is hard at all. But every aspect of what is required can be expressed in terms of methods, tools and principles (and that's not meant to be an exhaustive or comprehensive list). If you're looking at some vals repertoire for a forthcoming set, you can use your ears, listen carefully, and make your selections: these three songs work best, and the order ABC works better than CAB or BCA. But if part of your planning toolkit was to have tagged every vals with its BPM value, then you will start to notice a trend in the most-frequently successful way to order three songs that form a nice coherent group. I couldn't give a sh*t whether the song titles are in ascending alphabetical order, but I might narrow the search in a big music collection for songs by knowing the rough date ranges for each era, and whether they are slow, medium or fast paced. Even something as basic as having the songs properly tagged with the correct dates, and whether they are sung (and by whom) can help to zoom in on the group from which the three songs you want can be most readily chosen.
If you find such strategies helpful (or just efficient), then you need no convincing. If you have a different approach that produces good results and works for you, fine.
Clive wrote: " you can show your friend a printed chronological discography, neatly ruled off into your chosen eras, with the suggestion that an efficient starting point is to choose songs from within each are"
DeleteThat's suitable for would-be DJs that are deaf. And no-one else.
For people with working ears, the starting point is the sound of the music.
"Some people will apply or rely on their feelings or emotions to guide them in all manner of decisions - it's a facet of their personality - while others will bring a more methodical approach to the same task. Neither is a better method, except for the individual concerned. ... every aspect of what is required can be expressed in terms of methods, tools and principles"
You know, there people who say the same about the dance. They seriously believe in methods, or even 'methodologies' like this.
These people are almost all dance instructors. Very rarely dancers.
Why? Because though it works for instructors, it doesn't work for dancers.
"Today, people teach methodic ways and tango, the real one, does not have a method because it is a feeling. " Ricardo Vidort.
That applies to playing the music every bit as much as it applies to dancing it.
Clive wrote "equally, you could also use less vague language (particularly if you're describing the process to someone else) and explain that he changed styles several times, partly driven by general trends, but more usually by changing pianists and singers, and you can show your friend a printed chronological discography, neatly ruled off into your chosen eras, with the suggestion that an efficient starting point is to choose songs from within each era - and to use the time saved on an orchestra that isn't so easy to pin down.
ReplyDeleteOne could, but I think as in dance class the only people who might just stick around for that sort of explanation are not the ones I'd hold out most hope for. I learnt something early on about the worthwhileness of any explanation when it comes to music for dancing, least of all that type of explanation and I still hold by that.
Most DJs know a lot more than me about music, musical history, technology and sound systems. I am that anyone, I am the person with Chris's just a basic understanding. I don't use a decibel meter, I'd be guessing if said what bpm was and I had to ask if vinyl and 78s were the same thing - because taking the simple and easy route I don't believe everyone who DJs for the milonga needs to know. I listen, watch and feel and if I choose where to DJ carefully enough, I know enough and the rest takes care of itself - like my feet actually, when I dance!
And yet, I know and feel the music for dance which takes me a long way and I didn't really have to do anything for that except listen, watch and feel. Someone said to me on the floor before the last tanda the other day: "Do you want to stay up? Ah, I remember, you like to know what the music is first." I didn't know the second (or third, or fourth) track - this was in the Counting House, Edinburgh - but I wasn't in the guide role.
"It's not that I don't mind about the music said my partner, but..." - and this said with more honesty than any sense of slight "I'd rather dance more than mind."
"I can't dance it [as the guy] if I don't know it" I said, meaning, it won't move me til I know it and even then it might not.
"The difference is" she said, "you know you don't know it" and something to do with or related to that is in part I think why I don't need all that clobber around categorisation by anything other than feel, which encompasses everything a dancer needs and uses. But I except that's a bit too vague for you to mean much :)
"Either way, you are applying a principle, and whether you choose to give it that or any other name makes little difference to the results."
I think it does, because I believe process influences product. And because of that, Neither is a better method, except for the individual concerned. - disagreed!
I don't think DJing is hard at all.
The way you described it sure sounds like it!
Djing can be lots of things and everyone's approach is different. It is, frequently, paid work. By analogy, consider most workplaces, where a service is being provided for consideration. The customer, whether its for the provision of facilities for social dancing, or something quite unrelated, have expectations.
DeleteThe object of the business (and no shame in it being one) is to fulfil or exceed the expectations of the customer (and usually to make a profit doing it). I'm not interested in making too many connections between good DJing and being successful in business - so let's not go there - but I raise the analogy to make the point that most businesses have an ethos, perhaps principles, but certainly methods in formulating their offering (whatever it is) and then delivering it. DJing is no different in that regard.
Your easy as 123 is missing so much detail as to be quite useless as a guide to the new DJ, except, perhaps, to give an impression about the touchy-feely spontaneity of the whole thing. The songs you play resemble a well-planted mixed flower border in the height of Summer. Interesting and attractive plants, growing together in harmonious groups, the sum greater than the parts. Never mind that the gardener's skill has been hard-won, or that two hefty plant encyclopedias are the current bedtime reading of the gardener, or that hours of preparation and work went into that border to make it look nice that afternoon.
1) Play three or four tracks you know people like to dance
What? Any three or four tracks that you know people like to dance? You mean like Bahia Blanca, Poema and No te apures cara blanca? If you don't mean that, you need to expand, a bit, or your guidance isn't going to help much.
2) Balance the feel between tandas, which is nearly the same thing as saying: play a range of orchestras (i.e. be very careful about who you play twice.)
What's a tanda, again? I don't remember you mentioning that. Or by between tandas do you mean curtain music; but you don't mention that. And would I be aiming to mix orchestras in every tanda (not just my first) because of some unspecified peril in playing the same one twice?
3. Soundcraft/
Let's assume that I don't know what that is.
OK, I'm being daft - but you see the point. There is so much prior knowledge and understanding required to make anything of the 123 approach, and nothing is ever, quite, that easy. The very structure of a milonga is process driven. Try mixing up the ordering of your TTVTTM tandas, or varying the number of songs per tanda, and see how well the dancers grow in your dance garden then. Play a D'Arienzo tanda with songs with where first Fasoli, then Biagi, Polito & Salamanca were in the pianist's chair, and see how happy your experienced dancers are. The eager-eyed newbie DJ may be perfectly sincere in believing that the songs all have a lovely, unified feel to them, but watch the faces of the old hands.
It just won't do: DJing is process driven whether you like it or not. For me, the art is in having acquired (by whatever learning method or whatever strategy works) the basic rules and then, having sharpened up the listening skills through countless hours and hours of active listening (and plenty of dancing, ideally), be able to bring all that knowledge and experience to making artful selections of music that satisfies the dancers.
It is often said that it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practise to master a high-level skill. DJing isn't all that hard, so very many fewer will serve just fine, but it is still a skill, and it isn't exercised in a vacuum. You obey the rules. It's an effort and a worry, to begin, and then it starts to feel easier. Driving is like that. Sooner or later, you find that the car moves off from the junction because the traffic lights changed through amber to green.
Anyone with a skill and experience can make things look easy.
I await your book/workshop/website expansion on teaching people to DJ.
DeleteI can't see how you can believe one thing about learning to dance Argentine tango but another about DJing. It misses the whole point. The approach is connected.
Well let's agree that I've missed the whole point - life's too short; but you'll be glad to know that I have no plans to presume to teach anyone how to DJ.
Deleteyou'll be glad to know that I have no plans to presume to teach anyone how to DJ.
DeleteActually, no. It would be clear and make more sense. Because many of your points are justifications of your method by virtue of the fact that they can be broken down and explained. That is misrelated.
Clive wrote: "Your easy as 123 is missing so much detail as to be quite useless as a guide to the new DJ"
DeleteGuide n. A person who shows the way to others.
That's shows the way, not shows the thing.
"Never mind that the gardener's skill has been hard-won, or that two hefty plant encyclopedias are the current bedtime reading of the gardener, or that hours of preparation and work went into that border to make it look nice that afternoon.
Got to wonder how this hard-winning gardener deals with the sight of naturally growing flowers in the field out back. I guess he has to make a stack of encyclopaedias to block the view. Or employ weedkiller...
Well let's agree that I'm an idiot, set up for you to come along and dazzle us with your erudition. Shrug.
DeleteClive, no-one here is trying to claim or show any erudition, or anything fancy. I think you know that no-one here is very pro dazzle and show. Least of all is anyone saying that any kind of special erudition or learning is necessary. Only you here are making those claims. Not me. Not Chris. Only you.
DeleteThe kind of DJing you have been speaking of is to do with (your words): rules, process, method, strategy.
Yet despite all these props, wrappings and furbelows, it is you who has wanted to claim the emperor has no clothes.
Those are all the kinds of words also used by dance class teachers and businessmen. No surprise then that you get validation from the things behind those words precisely because you say, it's what businesses do, it sells (so it must be right). That's where we differ.
PS - This was sent me re shellacs.
ReplyDeleteHello! I could have sworn I've been to your blog before but after going through a
ReplyDeletefew of the posts I realized it's new to me. Regardless,
I'm certainly pleased I came across it and I'll
be book-marking it and checking back often!
Hello! And thank you! It's been around for a few years but it was also down for over a year which might've thrown you. You've caught me trying tapas in Murcia - ¡Salud!
ReplyDelete